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Blue-Green MADNESS...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by IanB1015, Jan 3, 2011.

  1. IanB1015

    IanB1015 Inactive User

    38
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    I have a 29 gallon biocube reef setup. complete with HO LED's and a fluval canister for up to 70 gallons. i have wavemaker timers set up and a Tunze nano DOC skimmer. (40-60 gallons) my problem is the blue-green algea that is coating my rock. I have tried every solution i can think of and nothing seems to be stopping the growth...
    here is a list of the things i have done to limit/ stop the algea growth
    *add hermit crabs and snails to chew algea off..
    *add emerald crabs to clean
    *add atlantic-blue tang to eat algea...
    *do rigerous algea removal with a toothbrush and fish net..
    *add nitrate removers (resin material made by carib Sea.)
    *Reverse Osmose my water (Des Moines, Iowa water nitrates read at a steady 20-30ppm nitrate..)..
    *limit use of lighting system. no more then 8-10 hours a day full cycle (50/50-18,000K)
    *add UV steralizer ...
    *limit the addition of "essential elements" added during water changes to limit nutrients (for example Reef plus or essential elements)
    *feed less food, and skip a day or two throughout the week of feeding.
    I do a 5 Gallon water change once per week, and add RO water straight to the system depending on Salinity levels..
    I add Prime(seachem) Stability(seachem) strontium malibnum and iodine (but no more then directed on bottle) i have to use a PH/DKH buffer made by API labs to buffer my water to 8.3-8.4 and a Coraline solution made by Carib Sea called Purple UP, and thats all i put into my tank...i use Corallife reef salt and keep my tank at about 79-80*F with a salinity about 0. 22-0.023/24..
    IS there something i am doing wrong? i change my filters regularly and my tank has been set up almost 8 months now. I just can no seem to get rid of all of this algea, i have an incredible algea eating team and they cant keep up with it either. in fact im having a hard time keeping my turbo/astria snails alive for a prolonged period of time. and my lawnmower blenny and atlantic blue are eating non-stop...help!!
     
  2. Matt

    Matt Inactive User

    867
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    First off it sounds like you are adding a large amount of chemicals to the system. I would start by stopping adding all the chemicals, and get down to a basis of where your at by letting it go for a couple weeks to work the chemicals out and test the water, and see what you need to do. Also I would remove the Filter, from what I have read they seem to be a nitrate trap sometimes. I would also switch the filter for a GFO reactor. I have a Biocube 29 and I run a Aqua C skimmer and I add nothing to it and I do have alittle algea but not much. I would also run your RO water through a DI cartridge to make it less PPM 20-30 is still pretty high. That would be my suggestion, also what is the Bioload on the tank.(How many fish)
     
  3. Foo

    Foo Well-Known ReefKeeper

    524
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0
    If you do a 5 gallon water exchange every week, you don't have to add anything. Salt mix contains those elements. Don't add what you can't test for. Whats you alk/calcium? Nitrates, do they read 20-30 after your RO or before?
     
  4. jtesdall Expert Reefkeeper

    Ames/Des Moines
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0
    What is your tanks nitrate reading?
    What is your tanks Phosphate reading?
    Are you unsing a DI on your RO system?
    What is the TDS reading on the RO water?
    How old is the tank?
    How many fish?
    These would be the starting points to finding your solution. Don't change anything until you know these.
    This statement scares me a little "add RO water straight to the system depending on Salinity levels.."
    Are you mixing saltwater externally and letting it sit for awhile? The only straight RO you should add to your tank is for top-off to replace evaporation.
    Agree with Matt, as a general rule never add anything to your tank you can't measure. Especially to a small system where additions are magnified by small water volume. I also agree in generally getting rid of the Fluval unless you keep it very clean (every couple of days) or are just running carbon or GFO for phosphate removal.
    My guess is you have elevated NO3 and PO4, NO3 above 5 or 10 and PO4 above .05. But test it with good kits and get back to us.
    Please don't buy any miracle products on the market that will get rid of algae, they will cause more harm than good. We will help you get rid of the reason it is growing, its food: NO3 and PO4.
     
  5. IanB1015

    IanB1015 Inactive User

    38
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    nitrates straight out of the tap run me about 20-30ppm, after RO its down to 0-5. and what about this GFO reactor? is this better then running a canaster?
    i only have 6 fish in the tank
    my nitrates in the water are no more then 20ppm
    phosphate is very low
    and im not sure what TDS for my RO means..i just have a two stage coralife..?
    i have to run to work i can do a detailed test in about 5 hours...
     
  6. mthomp

    mthomp Inactive User

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    Part of your problem could simply be your canister filter. I have never used one myself but I have read they tend to be more trouble then anything.
    I agree with JT. though its food. You said you have 6 fish in your 19 gal, one being a lawnmower blenny and the the other a blue tang, what other fish you got in there? what are you feeding? how much and often?
    Stop adding all those chemicals as someone else said.  everything your adding is already in your salt when you do a water change.  and purple up is just calcium.
     
  7. jtesdall Expert Reefkeeper

    Ames/Des Moines
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0
    If you are planning to go reef you need to get a 4 stage RO minimum with a DI cannister (Pre, Carbon, RO and DI). This will get you down to 0 TDS (your 0-5 reading is TDS). When the reading goes to 1 you change the DI resin or other filters.
    A GFO reactor is for running Granular Ferric Oxide (Rust) and has the sole purpose of removing phosphates. Completely different purpose than what I assume you are running the fluval for which is to remove particulates. Removing particulates in a reef tank is mostly done with filter socks and skimmers.
    Nitrates above 0 are food for algae. No more than 20 tells m you probabally need a better test kit. I will guess you are using API, upgrade to one of the reef brands. I prefer Seachem.
    Phosphate very low is relative. In the Reef world very low is .01 to .03 with a high range being .05. Only higher precision test kits get down this low. The API Phosphate kit only goes to 1 or .1 if I remember right which is worthless for reefs. If we determine your PO4 is above .05 (I assume it is) then a GFO reactor can fix this but should be done gradually.
     
  8. mthomp

    mthomp Inactive User

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    wouldnt his PO4 read low since the algae is eating it?
     
  9. jtesdall Expert Reefkeeper

    Ames/Des Moines
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0
    I personally don't read much into that theory. I am sure it is true when you have a huge amount of algae. I am guessing he doesn't have an appropriate kit to actually measure low PO4, but I could be wrong.
     
  10. mthomp

    mthomp Inactive User

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    well i learned something about my test kits anyway, I use api and I have now found a reason to change. thanks for that.
     
  11. jtesdall Expert Reefkeeper

    Ames/Des Moines
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0
    For our purposes the API Calcium is good but not many others go low enough. I really like the Seachem NO3 and PO4 as they are quick and pretty easy to read low concentrations. There was a thread a few weeks ago and many people like Salifert.
     
  12. IanB1015

    IanB1015 Inactive User

    38
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    +0 / 0 / -0
    okay i got the test results, now i dont have any other test for Phosphate then the API drop bottle tester and for the rest i have the Red Sea reef test kit. the results are as follows..

    Nitrate: 20-50ppm, high range 100-250 (now on this im not sure how accurate the test was. the color turned red and the two in between colors for 20ppm and 50ppm was purple and orange..so im guessing red would fall into the 30-40ppm range? maybe higher then 50ppm? not sure, i tested twice and measured same result.)

    Nitrite: 0.1ppm

    Phosphate: 0.5 ( tested with API drop bottle test kit)

    Now i remember in an earlier post that someone menchined food what kind and how much i feed, i use frozen cube food, Brine shrimp and Mysis shrimp 1/2 cube per day feeds my tank with alot to spare.. that cycle is Monday through friday and on the weekends i only use an omega one saltwater flake formula. i use coral foods as well but only MWF (three times a week) and no more then a cap full. however i do not target feed...should i be?

    for fish i have two true percula clowns, a psychodellic mandarin goby,a lawnmower blenny, a firefish, and my atlantic blue tang (which was only added to help with the algea controll. i have a few turbo/astria snails left but ive had some problems getting prolonged longevity out of them..simply they just keep dying.. i have between 6-8 scarlet hermit crabs and at last count 2 emerald green crabs for grazing algeas..

    about the nitrate trp in the canaster filter, even though this may be a powerhouse for building up nitrates, wouldn't bio media and live sand be other huge sources for nitrate "traps"? How good would removing the canaster for a GFO reactor be in the short term VS the long term?
     
  13. mthomp

    mthomp Inactive User

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    when you say coral food your talking the stronium essential minerals and such? thats not so much coral food as it is dosing your water. You dont need to do that. as far as spot feeding some do some dont. personally i just feed that tank with rods food and done.
     
  14. IanB1015

    IanB1015 Inactive User

    38
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    i mean like phytoplex, microvert etc
     
  15. jtesdall Expert Reefkeeper

    Ames/Des Moines
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0
    Well if your tests are anywhere near accurate you are feeding your algae well. Again Nitrate should be below 5 and near 0, Phosphate should be under .05. But for the future get better test kits that test lower ranges.
    On a small system like yours water changes are the fastest way to correct things but not too fast. Also, you have to make sure your replacement water and salt are not putting the nitrates and phosphates back in, so test freshly mixed salt water.
    Ways to reduce Nitrate: Water Changes, macro algae in a refugium, DSB (Deep Sand Bed), Nitrate reactor, really good skimmer and carbon dosing.
    Ways to reduce Phospahtes: Water changes, GFO Reactor, Carbon Dosing.
    Yes Bioballs and such are Nitrate traps and have been dicounted by more modern reef keepers. A DSB (Deep Sand Bed) and Live Rock actually grow Anaerobic bacteria that convert Nitrate into Nitrogen gas which is a good thing, but it does it very slowly as not much water flows through these items.
    Just keep the Fluval clean constantly or it will be a problem guaranteed. Most just take them out, I use canisters to polish and remove large particulates but clean the filters every other day.
    What you are experiencing is VERY common by the way.
     
  16. IanB1015

    IanB1015 Inactive User

    38
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    every other day?? wow..it almost seems like i would be better off doing like a 10 gal sump setup? and just doing away with the canister? It seems to me the fluval is a pain in the butt to maintenance on a good day, but every other day? WOW..

    also what is meant when you say carbon dosing? like carbon in a filter bag and just dropped into the system?
    where my tunze doc skimmer sits in the ceneter compartment of my biocube there is no room for a refugium. perhaps an intank one?
    I myself have actually been wanting to setup several different reactors to combat different problems but have always wondered with a system like mine if it would be too much for the tank..

    I actually have a Marineland Magnium 350, would that be sufficient enough for removing large particles but have enough power to provide flow to my chiller and 1-2 reactors? and if i discontinue use of bio balls should i also toss bio glass media and bio medias like Matrix?

    This weekend i will be buying seachem test kits /DesktopModules/ActiveForums/themes/_default//emoticons/smile.gif
     
  17. Gordo

    212
    Dallas Center
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    I had the same problem with by 29 biocube.  I tried several filters and reactors but with no luck.    Than i read about vodka dosing http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php   Now I just run the noraml biocube skimmer and dose once a day.  NO MORE ALGE PROBLEMS!!!
     
  18. jtesdall Expert Reefkeeper

    Ames/Des Moines
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0
    Carbon dosing is the new craze and is still new and arguable in the hobby as a whole. Many of our members believe in it and I am close to being in that camp myself. The easy way is with the new bio-pellets but they are expensive. The slightly harder but cheaper way is with Vodka (Sugar and Vinegar are also used by some) but this takes more study and care.
    I use Magnum 350 and HOT Magnums, great filters. I have one that is 15 years old and going strong.
    Yes on Bio Balls. I also lean towards getting rid of anything that may collect detritus, your rock and sand should be much better bio medias than what you mentioned. But I am not going to reccomend either way on those.
    Ya, Seachem Nitrate and Phosphate are reasonable and pretty easy to read. Again, others like Salifert. Seachem is also a Co-sponsor of our MACNA so I say definitely go with them.
     
  19. Sponge Expert Reefkeeper Vendor

    Marshalltown, IA
    Ratings:
    +233 / 1 / -0
    Maintaining a SW/Reef tank is totally different than a FW.  I'm saying this in a good/nice way, you need to read, read, read and then read some more.  Every tank is different and what works for one, doesn't work for another.  All reefers have their opinions on what works, what doesn't, what's wron and what's right.  You have to decide for yourself and your tank.  There are givens in this hobby like the need to use RO/DI, don't dose what you don't/can't test, maintain proper cal/alk/PH/ etc. levels et cetera.  Your tank is still a "new tank" and tanks go through cycles.  Sometimes trying to correct a problem will create another problem.   Things being said above by others I agree with for the most part...but not the vodka dosing.  Vodka dosing should be a last resort as it is just masking an underlying problem and once used, most 'have to' continue doing it as they haven't attached the true problem.
    What and how much are you using for live rock?  It too could be the or part of the problem.  Do you have a sandbed?  What did you use for sand?  This too could be the or part of the problem.  Have you considered the snails are dying from unstable water parameters?  Snails don't do well with fluctuating water params.  The problem that you are having with the algae can be nixed but it may take some time.  Take things slow, read and don't get discouraged.  There is a definite learning curve with SW?reefkeeping.  Help is available here as you can see  from the responses.  I wish you "Happy Reefing"![​IMG]
     
  20. jtesdall Expert Reefkeeper

    Ames/Des Moines
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0
    I will agree with you Terri on everything except the vodka dosing. The jury truly is still out although the results are truly miraculous across the country and they have been carbon dosing in Europe for years. The method as I understand it is not masking the problem but rather feeding larger populations of bacteria that useup excess nutrients. If this is true it wouldn't be masking the problem at all. I just don't want to confuse carbon dosing with things like red slime and algae removers. I will say I think Vodka dosing should be left to the more experienced reefers but from what I know of it bio-pellets can used easily by anyone. People are really getting amazing results. I personally think LED's and carbon dosing are revolutionizing our hobby!
    But yet another opinion on whats right or wrong and it is just that my opinion. I agree completely with everything else said though.
     

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